Jan 30
Quote Origin: Never Argue With Stupid People. They Will Drag You Down To Their Level and Then Beat You With Experience
Mark Twain? George Carlin? Yul Brynner? Jean Cocteau? Bob Gray? Dilbert? Scott Adams? Anonymous?
Question for Quote Investigator: Logic and careful reasoning are the ingredients of a constructive argument. Acrimony and irrationality are the elements of a fruitless argument. The celebrated humorist Mark Twain supposedly formulated the following cautionary remark. Here are two versions:
(1) Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!
(2) Never argue with stupid people because they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
Comedian George Carlin has also received credit. I am skeptical of both of these attributions, and I have never seen solid citations. Would you please examine this saying?
Reply from Quote Investigator: QI has been unable to find substantive evidence crediting this remark to Mark Twain or George Carlin. It does not appear on the Twain Quotes website edited by Barbara Schmidt,¹ nor does it appear in the large compilation “Mark Twain at Your Fingertips” edited by Caroline Thomas Harnsberger.²
Scholar Matt Seybold of Elmira College and the Center for Mark Twain Studies examined this saying and concluded that “Mark Twain never said these words, nor anything resembling them”.³ George Carlin received credit many years after the quip was circulating.
QI conjectures that the quotation evolved over time. The Bible contains a thematically related passage in Proverbs 26:4. Here is the rendering from the New International Version. Boldface added to excerpts by QI:⁴
Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you yourself will be just like him.
In 1878 April “The Daily Picayune” of New Orleans, Louisiana printed an adage depicting the underlying idea without attribution:⁵
To argue with a fool is to make him your equal.
In May 1878 “The Rochester Evening Express” of Rochester, New York printed another precursor while acknowledging an Ohio source:⁶
Don’t argue with a fool, or the listener will say there is a pair of you. — Cincinnati Breakfast Table.
QI has a separate article about a family of sayings incorrectly linked to Mark Twain which is available here: Never Argue With a Fool, Onlookers May Not Be Able To Tell the Difference.
In 1956 an Associated Press columnist spoke with the popular actor Yul Brynner who attributed a partially matching statement to prominent French artist Jean Cocteau:⁷
Yul said the greatest advice he ever received in life was given by the French writer Jean Cocteau, who told him:
“Never associate with idiots on their own level, because, being an intelligent man, you’ll try to deal with them on their level — and on their level they’ll beat you every time.”
The above statement used the word “associate” instead of “argue”, but within a few years the remark evolved toward the modern expression. In 1958 a columnist in “The Daily Tar Heel” of Chapel Hill, North Carolina used the word “argue”. The columnist also omitted Brynner’s name and attributed the words directly to Cocteau:⁸
As Jean Cocteau once said, “Never argue with an idiot, because being an intelligent man, you will argue with them on their level, and, on their level, they’ll beat you every time.”
In 1978 “The Memphis Press-Scimitar” of Tennessee printed an instance with a different attribution:⁹
Never associate with idiots on their own level because, being an intelligent person, you will try to deal with them on their level, and on their level they will beat you every time. — Bob Gray, Northeast Memphis Optimes
The expression continued to circulate in 1987 when it appeared in “The Kaplan Herald” of Louisiana. The connection to Cocteau was also recalled:¹⁰
IT’S TRUE — Never associate with idiots on their own level because, being an intelligent man, you’ll try to deal with them on their level — and on their level they’ll beat you every time. -JEAN COCTEAU
In 1993 an instance using the phrase “win with experience” appeared in the Usenet newsgroup comp.sys.cbm. The ellipsis occurred in the original text. The word “never” or “don’t” was omitted. No attribution was specified:¹¹
… Argue with idiots, they drag you to their level & win with experience.
In March 1997 an instance using the phrase “beat you with experience” appeared in a message posted to the Usenet newsgroup aus.computers.mac. No attribution was given:¹²
Never Argue with idiots,
They drag you down to their level,
And beat you with experience!
In April 1997 a message posted to newsgroup alt.games.vga-planets suggested that the guidance had been circulating for years. The words “it’s” and “received” were misspelled:¹³
For what its worth…. This is advice I recieved years ago and wish I had followed.
“Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level then beat you with experience”
In 1998 a columnist in a Kansas City, Missouri newspaper shared the saying with readers. No attribution was specified:¹⁴
The following funnies are from e-mail that people have fielded from the Internet and shared with me . . .
Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.
In January 1999 the quip appeared in the Usenet newsgroup aus.jokes, as the eighteenth item in a list titled “Dilbert’s Words of Wisdom”. Dilbert is a U.S. comic strip authored by Scott Adams. Earlier versions of the list from 1998 did not contain the quip. Several items in the list were misattributed:¹⁵
18. Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.
In June 1999 an instance in the Usenet newsgroup alt.games.starcraft used the word “moron” instead of “idiot” or “fool”:¹⁶
“Never argue with a moron, they’ll drag you down to their level, and beat you with experience.”
On June 2, 2009 a tweet attributed a different expression containing the phrase “Never argue with an idiot” to Mark Twain:¹⁷
@Spud31 Mark Twain (I think) said “Never argue with an idiot. People might not know the difference.”
On June 23, 2009 a tweet credited Twain with a hybrid expression:¹⁸
“Never argue with an idiot. They will beat you with experience and people listening in may not be able to tell the difference.” — Mark Twain
In July 2011 the crowd sourced website Goodreads credited Twain with a full instance using the phrase “stupid people”. Twain died in 1910, and this evidence was not substantive:¹⁹
“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”
― Mark Twain
In 2012 a letter published in a Whitehorse, Canada newspaper employed an instance with “idiot” and mentioned the Twain attribution with skepticism:²⁰
. . . another quote credited to Mark Twain, but its origin is really unknown: “Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.”
In 2013 a message in Usenet Newsgroup comp.os.linux.advocacy implausibly credited George Carlin:²¹
Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.
-George Carlin
Matt Seybold is an Associate Professor of American Literature & Mark Twain Studies at Elmira College. In 2020 he wrote a valuable article on this topic. Seybold located the crucial citations in 1956 and 1958 together with other important evidence. He also discussed the friendship of Brynner and Cocteau.²²
In conclusion, a precursor idea appeared as a proverb in the bible. The expression has been evolving for many years. In 1956 Yul Brynner credited Jean Cocteau with a partially matching statement. A closer match appeared in 1958, and a strong match occurred in 1993. The dubious linkage to Twain occurred many decades after his death. The attribution to George Carlin was also spurious.
Image Notes: Illustration of a jester’s hat from OpenClipart-Vectors at Pixabay.
Acknowledgements: Great thanks to Marian T. Wirth, Brian Zachary Mayer, Thayne Davidson Muller, Robert McMillan, AnxiousPony, and Jane Bella whose inquiries led QI to formulate this question and perform this exploration. Also, thanks to Matt Seybold for his pioneering research.
[1] Website: TwainQuotes.com, Editor: Barbara Schmidt, (QI searched the website for quotations containing the phrase “with experience” or the phrase “drag you”. No pertinent match was discovered), Description: Mark Twain quotations, articles, and related resources. (Searched January 28, 2023) link
[2] 1948, Mark Twain at Your Fingertips by Caroline Thomas Harnsberger, (QI searched for quotations containing the phrase “with experience” or the phrase “drag you”. No pertinent match was discovered), Cloud, Inc., Beechhurst Press, Inc., New York. (Verified with search)
[3] Website: Center for Mark Twain Studies, Article title: The Apocryphal Twain: “Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience”, Article author: Matt Seybold, Date on website: August 7, 2020, Organization description: The Elmira College Center for Mark Twain Studies was founded on December 31, 1982. The Center supports Mark Twain scholarship. (Accessed marktwainstudies.com on January 28, 2023) link
[4] Website: Bible Hub, Article title: Parallel Verses of Proverbs 26:4, Translation: New International Version, Website description: Online Bible Study Suite. Bible hub is a production of the Online Parallel Bible Project. (Accessed biblehub.com on January 21, 2023) link
[5] 1878 April 28, The Daily Picayune, (Untitled short item), Quote Page 4, Column 1, New Orleans, Louisiana. (Newspapers_com)
[6] 1878 May 20, The Rochester Evening Express, Happy Thoughts, Quote Page 4, Column 2, Rochester, New York. (Old Fulton)
[7] 1956 November 13, The Daily Messenger, Bald, But Not Frustrated by Hal Boyle. Quote Page 8, Column 6, Canandaigua, New York. (Newspapers_com)
[8] 1958 January 15, The Daily Tar Heel, A National Lottery: Is It A Revenue Source? by Frank Crowther, Quote Page 2, Column 7, Chapel Hill, North Carolina. (Newspapers_com)
[9] 1978 September 12, The Memphis Press-Scimitar, Factors Serves Notice On Elvis Bootleggers by Bill E. Burk, Quote Page 5, Column 5, Memphis, Tennessee. (Newspapers_com)
[10] 1987 July 22, The Kaplan Herald, Sauce Piquante, Start Page 1, Quote Page 13, Column 1, Kaplan, Louisiana. (Newspapers_com)
[11] 1993 December 12, Usenet discussion message, Newsgroup: comp.sys.cbm, From: Ben Dewberry @f272.n633.z3.fidonet.org, Subject: Zipcode Problem Solved. (Google Groups Search; Accessed August 8, 2020) link
[12] 1997 March 7, Usenet discussion message, Newsgroup: aus.computers.mac, From: Shane Delforce @mugca.cc.monash.edu.au, Subject: Commonwealth Bank. (Google Groups Search; Accessed August 8, 2020) link
[13] 1997 April 9, Usenet discussion message, Newsgroup: alt.games.vga-planets, From: Ken B. Anderson @ANL.GOV, Subject: Re: IRC Chat: Lukeofb. . . .. (Google Groups Search; Accessed August 8, 2020) link
[14] 1998 July 9, The Kansas City Star, Internet can provide PG-rated amusement by Lewis W. Diuguid, Section: Neighborhood News, Start Page 1, Quote Page 16, Column 5, Kansas City, Missouri. (Newspapers_com)
[15] 1999 January 20, Usenet discussion message, Newsgroup: aus.jokes, From: Mr. Funny Bone International @LineOne.Net, Subject: Words of Wisdom from Dilbert. (Google Groups Search; Accessed January 29, 2023) link
[16] 1999 June 6, Usenet discussion message, Newsgroup: alt.games.starcraft, From: Chaos-san @geocities.com, Subject: Re: clarification on newbies. (Google Groups Search; Accessed January 29, 2023) link
[17] Tweet, From: David D, @geopsychic, Time: 2:27 PM, Date: Jun 2, 2009, Text: @Spud31 Mark Twain (I think) said … (Accessed on twitter.com on January 29, 2023) link
[19] Website: Goodreads, Article title: Mark Twain > Quotes > Quotable Quote Timestamp on first ‘Like’: Jul 08, 2011 11:13AM, Website description: Goodreads is a large community for readers that provides book recommendations; the site is owned by Amazon. (Accessed goodreads.com on Jan 21, 2023) link
[18] Tweet, From: mwalkercreative @mwalkercreative, Time: 12:16 PM, Date: Jun 23, 2009, Text: “Never argue with an idiot. They will beat you . . .” (Accessed on twitter.com on January 29, 2023) link
[20] 2012 November 9, Whitehorse Daily Star, Section: Letters To the Editor, Letter title: Denying the facts is simply ignorant, Letter author: Kevin Sinclair of Whitehorse, Quote Page 18, Column 5, Whitehorse, Yukon, Canada. (Newspapers_com)
[21] 2013 October 17, Usenet discussion message, Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.advocacy, From: Crabbit Bampot @gmail.com, Subject: Early adopters struggle with Windows 8.1 update. (Google Groups Search; Accessed January 29, 2023) link
[22] Website: Center for Mark Twain Studies, Article title: The Apocryphal Twain: “Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience”, Article author: Matt Seybold, Date on website: August 7, 2020, Organization description: The Elmira College Center for Mark Twain Studies was founded on December 31, 1982. The Center supports Mark Twain scholarship. (Accessed marktwainstudies.com on January 28, 2023) link
